Transcript
[0:00] What type of career do you have? The
[0:03] assumption with of a lot of business
[0:05] schools and a lot of universities and
[0:07] the whole education system for [music]
[0:08] that matter is that we all have this
[0:09] kind of linear trajectory to our
[0:11] careers. Change when you can do [music]
[0:13] better and you're going to do that until
[0:15] well the end. That's kind of how it
[0:18] works. That assumption is wrong. A lot
[0:21] of people burn out on their linear
[0:23] careers because [music] they're actually
[0:24] not linears. What they should be doing
[0:26] is thinking about what's my next career
[0:28] going to be. There's all this stuff out
[0:29] there about work life balance. I've even
[0:31] [music] mentioned it here. I don't like
[0:33] work life balance. I like work life
[0:34] integration where your job makes your
[0:36] life happier and your life [music] makes
[0:38] your job happier because your job is
[0:40] part of your life. A lot of what we find
[0:42] in the research is that if you cultivate
[0:44] outside of work happiness, [music] it
[0:46] bleeds into your work itself.
[0:55] Hi friends, welcome back to office
[0:57] hours. [music] I'm Arthur Brooks. I'm a
[0:59] behavioral scientist dedicated to
[1:01] lifting people up and bringing them
[1:02] together in bonds of happiness and love
[1:05] using science and ideas. I want you in
[1:07] the movement of happiness to have more
[1:10] of it in your life and and to bring it
[1:12] more to the lives of other people. And
[1:13] that's why I do this show. That's why I
[1:15] do my writing and that's why I'm so glad
[1:17] that you're with me. If you like this
[1:19] show, if this is not your first episode
[1:20] or or if it is, please do share this. uh
[1:24] I want people to be exposed to these
[1:25] ideas because this is a toolkit. This is
[1:28] what I do is to make it possible for
[1:30] people to understand the science of
[1:31] happiness and how they can change their
[1:33] own habits and become happiness teachers
[1:35] themselves. I teach happiness at Harvard
[1:37] University and I write about it in the
[1:39] Atlantic and a column I write every week
[1:40] called How to Build a Life comes out
[1:42] every Thursday morning. It's about 1,200
[1:44] words on a new topic on the science of
[1:46] happiness. So if you like this show, do
[1:48] subscribe to that as well. And and while
[1:50] you're at it, pick up a new a copy of my
[1:52] new book, which is right behind me, this
[1:54] handsome yellow book right here, The
[1:56] Happiness Files: Insights on Life and
[1:58] Work. There's 33 essays, a lot like what
[2:00] you see in this show. Today, I have a
[2:04] very special topic, and that's how to
[2:06] manage your career. I want to do three
[2:09] things in particular. H how you know,
[2:12] what kind of career do you have? You
[2:15] might not know. I'm not talking about
[2:17] what substantively you do all day or
[2:19] what industry you're in. I'm talking
[2:21] about the four kinds of careers based on
[2:24] four different areas of human
[2:26] psychology. H this is going to be useful
[2:29] to you, I dare say. The second is how to
[2:32] change jobs when it's appropriate and
[2:34] how to know when it's time to go. The
[2:37] third is what can you do to give
[2:38] yourself the highest likelihood of being
[2:40] happy in a new job. So these are the
[2:43] three things I want to talk about. What
[2:44] is your career type? How do you change
[2:46] jobs and how do you make a job as happy
[2:49] as it can possibly be? That's really
[2:51] what I'm all about today. Now, if you
[2:53] like the show, once again, please do
[2:54] like and subscribe and give us any
[2:56] questions or comments that you've got
[2:57] anywhere where you're watching this. Um,
[2:59] send us an email at office hours
[3:01] arthurbrooks.com or or just put in the
[3:04] comment section below and we'll respond
[3:05] ordinarily and and we certainly will
[3:07] read all of that. And once again, please
[3:09] do suggest this show to all your
[3:12] friends, especially if you enjoy it.
[3:14] Okay, let's get started. What type of
[3:17] career do you have? Now, uh this is a
[3:21] question that was asked by psychologists
[3:23] at the University of Southern California
[3:24] in the 1990s. It was a team led by a
[3:26] psychologist by the name of Michael
[3:28] Driver. I think this research is really,
[3:31] really super cool. Why? Because I love
[3:33] research that's counterintuitive. And
[3:35] let me give you an example of what I
[3:36] mean by this. I teach at a fancy
[3:39] business school, really, really nice
[3:40] high quality business school. And we do
[3:42] so many things, right? I I love teaching
[3:44] there. But there's one thing that we
[3:46] don't always get right, which is this
[3:48] assumption that our students have one
[3:51] kind of career trajectory. We don't all
[3:54] assume they're going to go into one
[3:55] industry. They're not going to go into,
[3:56] you know, some into manufacturing and
[3:58] some into consulting and some into
[4:00] financial services. We don't make any
[4:03] assumptions about that. But we often
[4:05] make the mistake of assuming that our
[4:07] students are going to have this shape to
[4:09] their careers. They're going to come out
[4:11] of business school. they're going to
[4:12] take a a job and then they're only going
[4:14] to change jobs when they get a better
[4:16] job in terms of position or power or
[4:19] prestige or wealth. That's when they're
[4:21] going to change. And so it's kind of a
[4:22] stairstep approach up or you might think
[4:24] of as a linear career. Michael Driver
[4:27] and his colleagues in the 1990s and then
[4:30] later this has been developed more and
[4:32] again once all this stuff goes into the
[4:34] show notes so you can look at these
[4:35] papers if you want. I really recommend
[4:36] it. They're they're great. Um the
[4:38] assumption with of a lot of business
[4:41] schools and a lot of universities and
[4:42] the whole education system for that
[4:44] matter is that we all have this kind of
[4:45] linear trajectory to our careers. Change
[4:48] when you can do better and you're going
[4:50] to do that until well the end. That's
[4:54] kind of how it works. That assumption is
[4:56] wrong according to Michael Driver. On
[4:58] the contrary, there's four different
[5:01] distinct career types based on your
[5:04] psychology. And everybody who's a
[5:06] professional, and one in some way,
[5:08] shape, or form fits into one of these
[5:10] four career types. So, I'm going to tell
[5:12] you what the other three are, and then I
[5:13] want you to think a little bit about
[5:15] what's your natural career type. And a
[5:17] bunch of you watching this are going to
[5:19] feel kind of seen for the first time, I
[5:22] dare say, because I told you about that
[5:24] linear career type. That's actually one
[5:26] of them. And there are people like that.
[5:29] But maybe you think that's that's how
[5:32] everybody thought I was or that's how I
[5:34] always thought I was. But I never liked
[5:35] that. I never liked that. I never felt I
[5:37] felt confined to always do better,
[5:40] always do more, always make more, run
[5:44] faster. Huh? Here's the other three
[5:46] career types.
[5:48] One career type is kind of similar to
[5:50] that linear career type, but it doesn't
[5:52] go up as fast and it doesn't have as
[5:54] much change. It's called the expert
[5:57] career type. The expert career type is
[6:00] one that that goes up a little bit, kind
[6:02] of cost a living, and it almost never
[6:04] changes.
[6:06] So, the linear career type I talked
[6:08] about before, you can be changing jobs
[6:10] every 3, four, five, six years. Really,
[6:12] really common, but only when something
[6:14] better comes along. And the expert
[6:15] career type you almost never change
[6:17] because it's the one job and career that
[6:19] you have that rewards you a little bit
[6:21] more each year. And a big part of your
[6:23] compensation is security and
[6:25] dependability. So a lot of government
[6:27] jobs are these expert career types.
[6:29] People who like this, a lot of people in
[6:31] academia, which is a sector I've been in
[6:34] for a long time, they like this expert
[6:36] career path. My dad was on the expert
[6:38] career path. He had the same job for
[6:40] literally decades. And he got probably a
[6:42] cost of living advance, maybe two and a
[6:44] half, 3% raise. Um he could count on it.
[6:47] He wasn't trying to make sure that all
[6:49] of his waking hours were dedicated to
[6:51] his work. On the contrary, he's paying
[6:53] attention to his family and he had
[6:54] hobbies. He was a really, really skilled
[6:56] woodworker. He's a good carpenter. And
[6:58] this job was one part of his life, but
[7:00] he wanted to make sure he always had it.
[7:01] So, he had good work life integration
[7:04] and balance, but he also had great
[7:07] security. That's what people who who are
[7:09] on the on the expert path, what they
[7:11] look like. Now, a lot of you don't have
[7:13] that, but a lot of your parents and
[7:14] grandparents did. and and I really
[7:17] respected a lot of the people who do. I
[7:18] don't have it, right? But that's only
[7:21] the second career type. And again, this
[7:23] is based on individual psychology. This
[7:26] is not based on the job. It's based on
[7:27] the person who seeks out these things.
[7:29] And one of the problems is when you're
[7:31] in the wrong career type with respect to
[7:34] your psychology, then you get really
[7:35] uncomfortable. I'm not quite there yet.
[7:38] The third is called the transitory
[7:40] career type. The transitory career type
[7:42] is the career type where you're you're
[7:44] kind of jumping between things all the
[7:46] time. You'll change jobs every one and a
[7:49] half to three years and and sometimes
[7:52] you make more and sometimes you make
[7:53] less. But that's really not the point.
[7:55] These are the people who say, "I don't
[7:57] live to work. I work to live." These are
[8:00] people who have their their their life
[8:03] is really outside of work and and work
[8:04] is kind of a necessary evil. And again,
[8:06] I'm not casting aspersions. I'm not
[8:08] saying there's something wrong with you
[8:09] if that's how you see things. That's
[8:11] just the life that you want. But the
[8:12] career that you to see from that
[8:13] wouldn't be like my dad who taught at a
[8:15] university, same university for decade
[8:18] after decade. This would be somebody who
[8:20] moves around a lot. You know, I was I
[8:22] was, you know, driving a moving van out
[8:24] of Tucson for a while and then, you
[8:26] know, I met a girl in Bangor, Maine. So,
[8:27] I moved there. I was a barista for two
[8:29] years. That didn't work out. So, I went
[8:30] to San Diego. I'd always wanted to live
[8:32] in San Diego. Such a beautiful place.
[8:33] And I got a job in a surf shop and that
[8:35] was kind of cool. But, you get my point,
[8:38] right? I mean, parents often worry that
[8:40] their kids have this transitory career
[8:41] path, but that's because they don't
[8:43] understand their their their children's
[8:45] uh priorities in life. You decide
[8:47] whether or not that's a good priority or
[8:49] bad priority. I strongly suspect that
[8:51] most of you watching this don't have
[8:53] that career path, but it does exist.
[8:55] That's the third one. But now, the
[8:57] fourth one, this is the one I want you
[8:59] to be paying attention to because this
[9:00] fourth one is really super common, but
[9:03] most people who have it don't know they
[9:05] have it. This is called the spiral
[9:07] career path. The spiral career path
[9:10] ordinarily is a bunch of smaller careers
[9:13] stitched together in the mind of the
[9:16] person and it has rhyme and reason
[9:18] according to that person but maybe not
[9:20] to outward people to people on the
[9:22] outside. This is usually characterized
[9:24] by job and career changes every 7 to 12
[9:27] years. This is something we often see.
[9:30] There's a lot of women who have this
[9:31] career path and it'll be, you know,
[9:32] after school working in something for
[9:34] seven years and then stepping back a
[9:36] little bit because of family life and
[9:39] working part-time perhaps and then going
[9:41] back into the workforce but in something
[9:42] totally different that they'd always
[9:44] been really interested in. And then
[9:46] seven or 12 years later going into an
[9:47] going in an entirely different
[9:49] direction. And you look at it from the
[9:50] outside, you're like, "This has no rhyme
[9:52] or reason." But you talk to the person
[9:54] and she says or he says, "No, no, no,
[9:56] no, no, no, no. Everything I did I
[9:58] learned from what I had done before and
[10:00] everything I did in my career was
[10:02] enriched by my past experiences. I can
[10:04] see it. Spirals are really interesting.
[10:07] Those are the big career changers. And a
[10:10] lot of people who are pushed by school
[10:13] onto the linear career path more more
[10:15] and more change every three or four
[10:17] years because this is a better
[10:18] opportunity. It's a better opportunity
[10:20] in your field. You're not going to
[10:21] change field but you are going to change
[10:24] jobs because somebody appreciates you
[10:25] more there. They feel kind of out of
[10:27] sorts and they don't love it that much,
[10:29] but they'll do it. They don't quite
[10:30] understand why they're burning out. A
[10:33] lot of people burn out on their linear
[10:34] careers because they're actually not
[10:36] linears. They're spirals. What they
[10:38] should be doing is thinking about what's
[10:40] my next career going to be. Now, this
[10:42] was really interesting research for me
[10:44] because I'm a I'm a true spiral. I knew
[10:46] what I wanted to do for the rest of my
[10:48] life when I was 9 years old. I wanted to
[10:51] be a professional classical musician.
[10:53] That's all I wanted to do. I I want I
[10:54] literally wanted to be the world's
[10:56] greatest French horn player and that's
[10:57] all I was paying attention to all the
[10:59] way through school. I wound up dropping
[11:00] out of college when I was 19. Um I was
[11:03] completely unmotivated to be a college
[11:05] student. I just wanted to be a
[11:06] professional French horn player. So I
[11:08] went pro when I was 19 and and through
[11:10] my 20s that's that's what I was paying
[11:12] attention to. But in my late 20s I
[11:14] started to get really restive. To begin
[11:16] with I wasn't the world's greatest
[11:17] French horn player. I was good French
[11:19] horn player making a living but but I
[11:21] wasn't living up to what I wanted to be.
[11:23] And I also had done the same thing over
[11:25] and over and over again having played
[11:26] chamber music for a while and I played
[11:29] in a symphony orchestra in Barcelona for
[11:30] a while and I was teaching at a
[11:32] conservatory and I thought I'm going to
[11:34] kind of do the same thing over and over
[11:35] again and I want to try some new things.
[11:36] So I went to college in my late 20s. I
[11:39] went to college through distance
[11:40] learning as a matter of fact because I
[11:41] didn't really have any money but also I
[11:43] didn't have any time. I had a full-time
[11:44] job and so I found a good place to study
[11:46] and I did that. And when I did that I
[11:48] found I was super interested in all of
[11:50] these other things. I had no idea. I
[11:53] took a statistics class. Cool. I took
[11:55] calculus. Interesting. But what really
[11:58] lit me up was behavioral economics. I
[12:00] mean, just doing economics, I felt like
[12:02] I had this power to understand human
[12:03] behavior, but with a kind of a
[12:05] psychological twist, which is what I do
[12:08] now, right? But I didn't know. It was so
[12:09] interesting. And and by about two years
[12:12] into my college education, I'm like,
[12:13] "Yeah, man. I gotta make a change. I
[12:15] gotta make a change." So, I was still
[12:17] working as a French horn player. and I
[12:19] got my my master's degree at night in
[12:21] economics and then I'm like I'm still
[12:23] hungry and so I quit music. That was
[12:25] hard to do. I quit music when I was 31.
[12:28] It had been a long career. I did made my
[12:30] living full-time doing that for 12
[12:32] years. But I had to do that so I could
[12:33] get my PhD. And I went and got my PhD in
[12:36] public policy studying applied
[12:38] microeconomics and mathematical modeling
[12:40] with an emphasis on human behavior. And
[12:43] and then I became an academic starting
[12:45] to do the kind of stuff that I do now.
[12:47] And that was the first turn of the
[12:48] spiral. Now, I should have known that
[12:51] there was going to be more turns to the
[12:53] spiral, but I didn't know about this
[12:54] model. And sure enough, by the end of
[12:56] the decade, I wanted to do a new thing.
[12:58] And I left and I went to become the
[12:59] president of a think tank in Washington
[13:01] DC. I was a chief executive of a huge
[13:03] nonprofit organization. And I did that
[13:06] for 10 and a half years. And then the
[13:08] spiral turned again. And I quit. I
[13:10] walked away. I'm really good at walking
[13:12] away from stuff, it turns out, which
[13:14] might seem imprudent. It certainly
[13:15] seemed really important to my parents uh
[13:17] after some of these spiral turns and and
[13:19] I I did what I do now which is I went to
[13:21] Harvard and I I introduced a class in
[13:23] the science of happiness and I started
[13:24] doing all this stuff in media about
[13:26] bringing the science of happiness to you
[13:27] which is the fourth turn of the spiral
[13:29] but I've had these four incredibly
[13:31] different careers. People are like wow
[13:32] that's weird man French horn player to
[13:35] happiness professor how does it work and
[13:36] it's like spiral career baby but you got
[13:40] to know how to do it and you have to
[13:42] have the confidence to do it. That's
[13:44] what I want to talk about because a lot
[13:46] of you are spirals and right now I'm
[13:48] talking about this. You're like, "Yeah,
[13:49] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's not so
[13:51] easy, is it?" Well, it turns out there's
[13:54] a lot of research that can help you
[13:55] spiral better. And even if you're not a
[13:57] spiral, if you're a transitory or an
[13:59] expert or even a linear, you're going to
[14:02] switch jobs a lot and you need to know
[14:04] how to do it well to give the highest
[14:07] likelihood of being successful and happy
[14:09] over the process of doing it. So, that's
[14:11] what I really want to talk to. And then,
[14:13] and we'll come back to your spiraling
[14:16] and I want you to be thinking about that
[14:17] along the way because you deserve to
[14:20] have a career of your own design. Your
[14:23] creativity should be made manifest in
[14:25] what you do with your life because your
[14:26] life is a startup. You're an
[14:28] entrepreneur. You incorporated. You're
[14:30] the founder and you get to do whatever
[14:32] you want with it so that you can have
[14:35] the love and happiness that should be
[14:36] your destiny. And you can bring the love
[14:38] and happiness that other people deserve
[14:39] and and need too over the course of your
[14:42] life, but you're not going to do it very
[14:44] happily or well if you're not in the
[14:47] right career path, if you don't know
[14:49] which of these things that you actually
[14:51] are.
[14:52] Okay. So, when you are on almost any one
[14:56] of these career paths, you're going to
[14:59] change jobs. Um, almost everybody does.
[15:02] Um, our graduate students, depending on
[15:04] the data that you believe, are going to
[15:06] have four different careers, whether
[15:10] they're spirals or not, they'll be in
[15:11] sort of different industries. And and
[15:13] probably 9 to 11 really different jobs,
[15:16] even if they're all in the same career,
[15:18] in the same, you know, area,
[15:20] professional area. And so that means
[15:22] you're going to be moving between
[15:22] employers. And and then the question
[15:24] becomes, how do you do that well? And
[15:26] how do you do that happily? And how do
[15:27] you do that successfully? And there's a
[15:29] lot of research that can actually help
[15:31] that. Now, that for some people is super
[15:34] scary. There's two types of people that
[15:36] find changing jobs incredibly scary.
[15:38] Number one is people who are riskaverse,
[15:40] naturally riskaverse. These are people
[15:42] who have a fear that change is actually
[15:45] going to hurt them because fear of the
[15:46] unknown is something that's particularly
[15:48] scary to them. And and there's a whole
[15:50] lot of neuroscience about that, but
[15:52] people who who fear a lot of change,
[15:54] there's a lot of amygdala activity in
[15:56] the lyic system of the brain, etc., etc.
[15:58] You know who you are if you're a really
[15:59] riskaverse person. probably not very
[16:01] many of you watching this are this
[16:03] because you're probably pretty
[16:05] entrepreneurial and you're and and and
[16:07] risk isn't your problem on the contrary.
[16:09] But but maybe some of you are and that's
[16:10] a normal thing. There's a distribution
[16:12] of people who hate risk and don't hate
[16:14] risk and and I've talked at different
[16:15] times about how to get better at taking
[16:17] big risks, how to have a little danger
[16:19] in your life. As a matter of fact, I'm
[16:21] going to do a show about the importance
[16:23] of embracing danger. I've done research
[16:26] on that. It's kind of cool. The second
[16:28] type of person who struggles with job
[16:30] changes are people who are high in
[16:31] conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is
[16:33] one of the five big personality traits.
[16:36] Openness to experience,
[16:38] conscientiousness, extraversion,
[16:40] agreeableness, and neuroticism. These
[16:42] are the five uh the five big personality
[16:45] characteristics. Um and the way that you
[16:47] remember this is ocean, openness,
[16:49] conscientiousness, extraversion,
[16:50] agreeableness, neuroticism. That's how
[16:52] you remember that's how I remembered at
[16:54] the very beginning as well. And people
[16:55] who are really really conscientious,
[16:57] they they don't walk away from stuff
[16:59] because they have a commitment to it. So
[17:01] my dad, one of the reasons that he was
[17:02] on the expert career path besides
[17:04] wanting to have a reliable career where
[17:06] there was security and predictability
[17:08] and and work life balance is because he
[17:10] was an incredibly conscientious
[17:12] individual and you know he felt that he
[17:13] had committed his career to a particular
[17:15] employer and they had committed his
[17:18] career to him and that was the deal.
[17:20] That was the implicit bargain. Most of
[17:22] you, if you're under
[17:25] 40, you're like, "What? Are you kidding
[17:28] me? That's insane, right?" But that's
[17:30] old school. That's kind of the way that
[17:31] people were um a lot back in the day. My
[17:33] dad was born in 1936, so there you go.
[17:36] So, most people don't think that
[17:37] particular way, but conscientious people
[17:38] nonetheless, they they do have a more of
[17:40] a struggle um leaving their jobs. So,
[17:42] they stay put, right? But that can be a
[17:45] problem, right? So, so it can be scary
[17:47] to move, but unhappy to stay. And and
[17:51] and by the way, that's actually getting
[17:52] harder. Interesting statistic today. In
[17:54] uh in 2024,
[17:57] 51% of people said that they were uh
[18:00] looking for a new job. This is Yeah,
[18:02] this actually comes from the Wall Street
[18:03] Journal. 51% of Americans reported they
[18:06] were looking for a new job. That's
[18:07] really, really high, right? Actually,
[18:09] it's way down. During the Coronairus
[18:11] epidemic, some estimate said that 90% of
[18:14] people of professionals in the American
[18:16] economy were on the market. That's
[18:17] insane. But that's actually a function
[18:19] of the fact that a lot of people were
[18:21] not enjoying their jobs when they were,
[18:23] you know, having Zoom meetings all day
[18:27] long, which is pretty bad. I mean, even
[18:29] if it was convenient, it certainly
[18:31] didn't make you love your job more,
[18:33] which is one of the reasons that people
[18:34] were so keen to leave their jobs. So, in
[18:36] other words, 51% is high, but it's going
[18:37] down. And one of the reasons that that
[18:39] percentage of people that are looking
[18:41] for jobs is going down these days is
[18:42] because the job market is getting
[18:44] harder. You know, as I'm recording this,
[18:46] we have this weird situation in the
[18:47] American economy that economists can't
[18:49] quite figure out, as a matter of fact,
[18:51] where there's very few layoffs, but very
[18:54] little hiring. So, the job market is
[18:56] sort of constipated. It's sort of stuck
[18:58] is what we find. And that's one of the
[19:00] reasons that that people are having
[19:02] really really a lot of trouble when
[19:04] they're coming out of college finding
[19:05] jobs because nobody's leaving, but
[19:07] nobody's hiring and nobody's laying off
[19:09] at the same time. And so, kind of
[19:11] nothing's moving. So the result of that
[19:12] is that people are trying are a lot more
[19:14] conservative than they've been in the
[19:15] past. So it's hard. I get it. But even
[19:18] if you can find a job, the big fear that
[19:22] people have is if I change jobs, maybe
[19:25] it's worse. Like let's say that you have
[19:27] a job that you're you're done with. If
[19:30] you're a spiral, how do you know when
[19:32] it's time to change? The answer is
[19:34] you're not interested anymore. If you
[19:36] stay in a job where your interest is
[19:38] waning, you're going to burn out.
[19:39] Burnout is about interest is what it
[19:41] comes down to. So that's how you know if
[19:44] if you're at the end of the seven to 12
[19:45] year cycle fellow spirals, you'd be
[19:47] like, you know, I used to love it, but
[19:49] no, not so much. Why? Because I'm bored.
[19:52] And you hate being bored. You're a
[19:54] curious person. Spirals are always
[19:56] really curious people. But but you worry
[19:58] if I actually go into something new, am
[20:00] I going to be happier? I was terrified
[20:01] of this when I when I left music. I was
[20:04] burned out and I was ready to go. But,
[20:06] you know, I'm going to go to get my PhD.
[20:07] And I was 31, 32, 33 years old. And and
[20:11] and then become, I don't know, an
[20:13] economist. I don't know what I'm doing.
[20:16] I literally didn't know how to do
[20:17] anything except play the horn. And so,
[20:19] this might be the biggest mistake of my
[20:20] life. And a lot of people said that. A
[20:22] lot of my musician friends said, "You're
[20:23] walking into a hole, man. I mean, you
[20:26] don't know how to do this and you're not
[20:27] going to like it. What are you? Some
[20:28] sort of a square anyway." And it was
[20:30] super scary. I might not be happier. Um,
[20:33] it got a little bit easier later, but
[20:34] when I was a chief executive of a
[20:36] nonprofit, you know, people around me,
[20:37] when I was walking, I was voluntarily
[20:39] walking away from this cool corner
[20:42] office job, people said, "You're making
[20:44] the biggest mistake you'll ever make." I
[20:46] was walking into this what I'm doing
[20:48] now. It is so great. I'm so happy that I
[20:51] did it. And part of the reason I had the
[20:52] confidence to do that is because I had
[20:54] experience in job changing at that
[20:56] particular point. Okay. Now, back to the
[20:58] question. When you change jobs, let
[21:01] alone careers, will you be happier? Now,
[21:04] I have data on this, and this is data
[21:07] that you can actually use. Job changers,
[21:10] people who are changing jobs, there's a
[21:12] reason that they're doing that.
[21:13] Obviously, the average rating on a 1:7
[21:16] scale, and this is how social scientists
[21:18] always measure this, is called a Liyker
[21:19] scale. And the reason they measure
[21:21] things on a 1:7 scale, it's got a
[21:23] midpoint because it's got that number in
[21:25] the middle. So which has nice
[21:26] mathematical properties.
[21:29] Job changers on average rate their old
[21:31] job in satisfaction whereas one is the
[21:34] least satisfied and seven is the most
[21:36] satisfied as a 4.5. That's the average.
[21:39] Your results may vary. Maybe you're like
[21:41] it's a one. But if your job is a seven,
[21:43] you're probably not on the market,
[21:45] right? So the average is 4.5. Now you
[21:48] want to know what the satisfaction is
[21:51] and the new job on average. And we know
[21:53] what that is. the satisfaction jumps
[21:56] after switching in and the two months
[21:59] after switching to about six. That's
[22:01] called the honeymoon effect. 4.5 to six.
[22:03] So probably when you change jobs, you're
[22:05] going to be like, "This is way better.
[22:07] This is way better at the beginning."
[22:09] The problem is that it goes up for a few
[22:12] months and then it starts to go back
[22:13] down again. And what you find is that
[22:14] the you get this bump over the first
[22:16] three or four months and then it starts
[22:18] to decline. And and at the end of the
[22:20] first year, you find that generally
[22:22] speaking, it's down to about 5.5. at the
[22:24] end of the first year. You might call
[22:25] that the one-year itch for jobs, new
[22:28] jobs, the end of 12 months. The problem
[22:31] is not that you like it less than your
[22:33] old job because 5.5 at the end of 12
[22:35] months is still higher than 4.5 which is
[22:37] what you left. The problem is it was
[22:40] higher and then it fell. It fell a
[22:42] little bit and that falling is is is
[22:45] lousy. It's feeling it feels like
[22:47] negative progress and a lot of people
[22:48] really suffer from that which is the
[22:50] reason that you hear people often say at
[22:52] the end of 12 months I think I might
[22:53] have made a mistake because it's falling
[22:55] and I know it's going to keep falling
[22:57] and then I'm going to like it less than
[22:58] the one that I left and maybe I
[22:59] shouldn't have left that job. Some
[23:00] people actually bail and go back. That's
[23:04] almost always a mistake as it turns out.
[23:06] More on that in a second. Now how can
[23:09] you actually see things turn around
[23:12] again after that? Because now people in
[23:15] new jobs break up into two groups. Half
[23:17] of the people keep going down and half
[23:20] of the people start back up again after
[23:22] about a year. I know which group you
[23:25] want to be in. And here's how they
[23:26] differ. The groups that keep going back
[23:29] down and go back down to about 4.5,
[23:31] which is the job they left before or
[23:33] even lower, these are people according
[23:35] to the research, and this is a really
[23:36] interesting study from the Journal of
[23:37] Organizational Behavior uh from 2023.
[23:40] It's a pretty new study. Um that are
[23:42] self-centered about their orientation,
[23:44] about their career orientation. Now, I'm
[23:46] not saying that you're self-centered or
[23:47] a narcissistic or a selfish person, but
[23:50] you think about your career with respect
[23:52] to you only, right? People who have this
[23:56] self-orientation, self-centered
[23:57] orientation in their career, they tend
[23:59] to max out in the early months and keep
[24:02] and then start going back down and by
[24:04] the end of a year a little bit better
[24:05] than the old job, but it keeps going
[24:06] back down. and pretty soon after about
[24:08] 18 or 24 months they want to change
[24:10] again and they do have a lot of job
[24:11] turn. The people who start back up again
[24:14] after a year and they tend to spend a
[24:16] lot longer in their careers and so they
[24:18] can have a 7 to 12 year run is a really
[24:20] happy spiral are called organization
[24:22] centered people. They have an
[24:24] organization centered orientation. In
[24:26] other words, they think more about
[24:27] themselves as a member of a team. And
[24:29] that's why it's so critically important
[24:31] for you when you're going from one job
[24:33] to another to be thinking about the team
[24:35] you're joining. Do I like this team that
[24:38] I'm joining? As opposed to, is this job
[24:40] going to be good for me? If it's a good
[24:41] team, it's going to be good for you is
[24:43] the whole point. But be thinking about
[24:44] the organization. I'm going to be proud
[24:46] of this. Am I going to be happy with
[24:48] these people? Am I going to learn and
[24:51] grow a lot in this job so that I can
[24:54] create more value for this company? Do I
[24:56] think that these managers are going to
[24:58] do a good job with the whole company
[25:00] that I'm part of? Or is it just kind of
[25:02] about me is what it comes down to. look
[25:04] for the organizational centered job and
[25:08] and try to align your incentives in that
[25:10] particular way and you'll have a much
[25:12] higher likelihood of not hopping between
[25:14] things and you're more likely to get a
[25:16] full turn of the spiral even if you are
[25:18] a spiral in this new career 7 to 12
[25:20] years that's what will give you the most
[25:22] uh satisfaction and the most longevity
[25:23] in the career. Now, next question. Will
[25:26] a change per se bring happiness or does
[25:31] happiness in life make it more likely
[25:33] that you'll get satisfaction in your
[25:35] job? You see what I'm saying here,
[25:37] right? I mean, there's all this stuff
[25:39] out there about work life balance. I've
[25:41] even mentioned it here. I don't like
[25:43] work life balance. I like work life
[25:44] integration where your job makes your
[25:46] life happier and your life makes your
[25:48] job happier because your job is part of
[25:50] your life. That's the way it's really
[25:52] supposed to work. That doesn't mean it's
[25:53] boundaryless. That doesn't mean you
[25:54] should be checking emails at 5:00 a.m.
[25:55] and 11:00 p.m. No, no, no. You shouldn't
[25:58] be doing that. You should be with your
[25:59] family and with your friends and and and
[26:02] reading the brothers Karamazov or
[26:04] something in in those off hours to be
[26:06] sure. But it should they should fortify
[26:08] and strengthen each other in very
[26:09] beautiful ways. But the question then
[26:12] still is if I'm happier outside of work,
[26:15] will it make my job change easier and
[26:17] better? Or is it just that the job
[26:19] change is going to make me happier? And
[26:21] the answer is both. The answer is both.
[26:23] You should to have to be more satisfied
[26:25] with your job, look for more life
[26:27] satisfaction outside your job. One of
[26:29] the biggest predictors of liking your
[26:31] job is liking your life. And and I guess
[26:34] it kind of makes sense, right? Because
[26:36] happy people are happy in all different
[26:38] parts of their lives. But it's really
[26:39] interesting because, you know, there are
[26:41] people that I find who say my home life
[26:43] is blissful and my work is drudgery. But
[26:46] it's pretty rare. And people in the same
[26:49] jobs, you'll find they're doing the same
[26:50] job. You know, like Mary and Paul are
[26:52] sitting in cubicles next to each other
[26:54] and they're doing data entry and Paul's
[26:56] like, "This is the worst. I want to jump
[26:58] out the window." And Mary's like, "This
[27:00] is a really, really good job. I like the
[27:01] people around me and I think I'm working
[27:03] for a company. I think it's pretty
[27:04] good." And it's not always really
[27:05] interesting. Sometimes it's boring, but
[27:07] but all in all, I'm really grateful to
[27:09] have this job. Why do they have these
[27:10] different orientations? And it has to do
[27:12] a lot more with the fact that Mary is
[27:14] more likely to have a happier life
[27:16] outside of work and Paul is likely to
[27:17] have an unhappier life outside of work.
[27:19] Now, you might be saying to yourself,
[27:20] it's because Paul's a naturally unhappy
[27:22] person. You've heard me say in the show
[27:23] that half of your happiness is genetic.
[27:26] You have a genetic proclivity. You know,
[27:28] your parents and grandparents gave you
[27:29] your base half of your baseline
[27:31] happiness. Literally, your mother made
[27:33] you unhappy. Sorry. Um, but it's not all
[27:36] that. A lot of what we find in the
[27:38] research is that that if you cultivate
[27:41] outside of work happiness, it bleeds
[27:43] into your work itself. And this is a
[27:46] really important thing to keep in mind
[27:48] because to for you to have a happier
[27:50] career, you need really good leisure
[27:53] hygiene. You need to take it really
[27:55] seriously. Here's the pattern that I see
[27:58] in my work. The people who work hard and
[28:02] are really exhausted and go home and
[28:04] don't do something generative and
[28:06] creative, but rather just scroll
[28:08] Instagram. These are the people who are
[28:11] unhappier about their non-work lives and
[28:13] they burn out more on their work as a
[28:15] result. You need to, as Steven CVY said
[28:18] in the famous seven habits of highly
[28:20] effective people, sharpen the saw. And
[28:22] that means that when you're not at work,
[28:24] you're reading, you're learning, you're
[28:27] loving, you're uh spending time doing
[28:31] things that are incredibly generative.
[28:33] You're developing your spirituality.
[28:35] You're doing serious things that don't
[28:37] happen to pay you and your hours outside
[28:40] work. And again, I'm going to I'm going
[28:41] to do a whole episode on leisure because
[28:44] structuring your leisure is so
[28:45] interesting and it can be so
[28:46] scientifically robust as well. But
[28:48] suffice it to say that if you're serious
[28:50] about your life outside work, your work
[28:52] is going to seem a lot happier and your
[28:54] job changes going to work better. Okay.
[28:56] Now, here's the third question. Does it
[28:59] matter why you change for the likelihood
[29:03] that your change is going to be
[29:04] successful and happy? And the answer is
[29:06] yes. So, there's two reasons to change
[29:08] your job. We'll call them push and pull.
[29:10] Now, pull is you want to do something
[29:13] else and so you quit. push is your boss
[29:17] says, "I think it's time for you to move
[29:18] on." For example, those are the two
[29:21] impetuses. And and you know perfectly
[29:23] that that when you're not in control,
[29:25] it's it's going to be harder. Now, I
[29:27] know a lot of people who've said, "My
[29:30] boss said that this wasn't a good fit
[29:32] and I had to go work someplace else and
[29:33] I was really really upset. I was really
[29:34] really mad." But by about two months
[29:36] into my new job, I realized that my boss
[29:38] was right and I told her that and and
[29:41] that's great when that happens. But in
[29:42] general, it it's more or less what you'd
[29:44] expect that when it's a push motivation
[29:47] that you don't control the timing and
[29:49] that's really uncomfortable. It can very
[29:51] inconvenient for your life and really it
[29:53] can be really hard on your family. When
[29:55] you don't feel like you have a sense of
[29:56] self-control that is cognitively a high
[29:59] load on you, then you worry about
[30:02] unemployment and and you're worried
[30:04] you're going to have to take something
[30:05] you don't like, it doesn't pay enough,
[30:06] etc. And and frankly, it's just really
[30:08] crummy for your self-esteem when your
[30:09] job goes away. um if even if it's not
[30:12] personal, it feels really really
[30:13] personal. And for all those reasons, the
[30:15] push motivation is much harder than the
[30:18] pull motivation. That's an important
[30:20] thing to keep in mind because I'm going
[30:22] to give you four things I want you to
[30:23] think about. And that's one of the
[30:24] things that I want you to be thinking
[30:26] about as you're contemplating a job
[30:27] change. Now, let's go back to the four
[30:29] career types. If you are feeling
[30:31] burnout, it probably means that you're
[30:34] spiral and that your spiral is turning.
[30:37] Kind of what it comes down to. And the
[30:39] reason is because the spiral turns when
[30:41] interest waines. Pay attention to that.
[30:45] You're not going to suddenly be like,
[30:46] "Well, grind more, work harder, you
[30:50] know, reignite the passion," which
[30:52] people talk about all the time. Fellow
[30:54] spirals, you're probably not going to.
[30:56] You're probably going to want to go look
[30:57] for a new thing. And thank God for the
[30:59] free enterprise system where we have
[31:00] options. I mean, not everybody has
[31:02] options all the time. And some people
[31:04] are way more privileged about that than
[31:06] others. Don't get me wrong. Some people
[31:07] can't do that. they can't do it. But a
[31:09] lot of you can. And what it takes is the
[31:12] imagination and the fortitude and the
[31:15] courage to say, "I think the spiral's
[31:17] turning. And how do I know? Because my
[31:19] gut is telling me I'm feeling a little
[31:22] dead inside. Time for me to go. Maybe I
[31:25] need to go study first. Maybe I need to
[31:28] move."
[31:29] But all that feeds into the fact that
[31:31] that that you're you're probably a
[31:33] spiral as opposed to the linear that the
[31:36] economy and the education establishment
[31:38] told you all along. You might not be
[31:40] that. So when it's time to change and
[31:43] incidentally maybe you're on a three or
[31:45] four year cycle isn't linear and it's
[31:47] time to change or maybe you're an expert
[31:50] and not of your own valition your career
[31:52] went away. you know, whatever happens,
[31:54] something you're you had layoffs or or
[31:56] you're transitory and you know, you met
[32:00] some the love of your life across the
[32:01] country, which is why you change your
[32:03] job. What should you to be thinking
[32:04] about with a job change? Here are four
[32:07] rules that govern the best possible job
[32:10] changes. Okay, here's the four things
[32:11] that you can do you should be thinking
[32:13] about to give you the highest likelihood
[32:14] of a very successful, very happy job.
[32:18] Number one, number one, manage your
[32:20] expectations. Spirals in particular are
[32:24] optimists and I love that. But optimism
[32:28] is not the same thing as hope. Optimism
[32:30] is a probability um prediction. It's I
[32:35] think things are going to be good.
[32:37] Right? I predict things are going to be
[32:38] good. Hope is not that by the way. Hope
[32:41] means something good can be done and I
[32:43] can do it. That's what hope is. Hope is
[32:45] active. That's the reason that hope is a
[32:47] theological virtue. In the New
[32:48] Testament, Paul talks about you know St.
[32:50] Paul talks about faith, hope, and
[32:52] charity, right? He talks about these are
[32:54] the three things, the three, you know,
[32:56] these three theological virtues. He
[32:58] doesn't talk about faith, optimism, and
[33:01] love. No, he talks about faith, hope,
[33:03] and love. Faith, hope, and charity. So,
[33:06] there's a natural tendency if you're a
[33:08] spiral to be looking into the future and
[33:10] say, "That's going to be great. It's
[33:11] going to be so great. It's going to be
[33:12] so great." And it is going to be great
[33:15] some of the time, but be realistic about
[33:18] the fact that, you know, you're going to
[33:19] move from a 4.5 to a six. And if you're
[33:22] organization centric, then you can
[33:24] actually you'll go down a little bit as
[33:26] the honeymoon is over, but you can start
[33:27] back up again. But it's not as if you're
[33:29] going to go it's going to be the
[33:30] permanent seven because the money's so
[33:32] good and it's so interesting. You're
[33:33] going to love it forever. It's a job.
[33:36] It's a normal thing to not have it be
[33:38] perfect and a perfect part of your life.
[33:40] So keep that in mind. manage your
[33:42] expectations, remember what things were
[33:44] like in the past and and don't pretend
[33:46] that it's going to be Shangrila, this
[33:48] perfection. That's just a grown-up thing
[33:50] to do. And uh I struggle with that. Um
[33:53] but the more that I do that, the better
[33:54] off I am. Second, look for your
[33:57] happiness first outside your job, right?
[34:01] I mean, this is in general something
[34:03] that's important because you know your
[34:05] job is going to change, but you're
[34:06] always going to come home to you, right?
[34:08] I mean, and so that therefore coming
[34:11] home to you, the you that's at home,
[34:13] that's not at work, that circumstance,
[34:15] that ecosystem should be optimized as
[34:17] much as you possibly can. Always work on
[34:19] that first because then then no matter
[34:21] what you're doing, whether it's the
[34:23] first part of the spiral, the end part
[34:24] of the spiral, whether you're burning
[34:27] out or fresh in your job, wherever you
[34:29] are, whether you're in the honeymoon or
[34:30] not, it's going to be better than it
[34:32] would have been otherwise. you're going
[34:33] to get an extra point or two in that
[34:34] liyker scale if you're working seriously
[34:37] about your non-work life. Look for
[34:39] happiness outside work. Don't look for
[34:42] your life happiness in your work
[34:45] exclusively. On the contrary, look for
[34:48] your work satisfaction in your nonwork
[34:51] life by setting it up and and taking
[34:53] care of your happiness hygiene. Third,
[34:57] this is a hard one. Jump before you're
[34:59] pushed. Most people know. I mean,
[35:02] sometimes there's, you know, out of the
[35:04] blue layoffs in your company or, you
[35:07] know, you get a new boss and the boss is
[35:09] a jerk and they come around and like you
[35:10] out out. But most of the time when
[35:12] people talk about having gotten rifted
[35:15] or, you know, losing their job for any
[35:17] reason. In retrospect, there were a lot
[35:20] of signs and they were hoping for the
[35:21] best. Hope for the best. I guess I guess
[35:23] that's maybe optimism is how I better
[35:27] how I should put it. how based on how I
[35:29] defined that a minute ago. But most
[35:31] people know and and pay attention to
[35:33] that because once again, if it's on the
[35:36] pull side, you're in charge. If it's on
[35:37] the push side, you're not. And push is a
[35:40] lot harder on you than pull. I recommend
[35:42] that when things are getting really,
[35:44] really dicey. If you can, you start
[35:46] looking at your options. That's just a
[35:48] prudent thing to do with respect to the
[35:50] likelihood of having a happy transition
[35:52] is what it comes down to. You can't
[35:54] always do it. I got it. But you can more
[35:57] than you think. And by keeping your eyes
[35:59] open and playing heads up ball, that's
[36:01] just prudential judgment,
[36:04] which is not a theological virtue. It's
[36:06] a cardinal virtue if you're following
[36:08] the philosophy that I'm laying down
[36:10] here. And last but not least is don't be
[36:13] afraid. Change is great. Change is good.
[36:16] Now again, if you are a riskaverse
[36:17] person person or excessively
[36:19] conscientious, I guess there's no such
[36:21] thing as excessively conscientious.
[36:22] really really conscientious like my dear
[36:24] old dad, it can make you really
[36:26] reluctant and and even fearful of job
[36:29] changes. But don't be afraid because
[36:31] change is super healthy. Change is super
[36:34] good. I'm talking to my students all the
[36:35] time. Yeah, it's okay to quit your job.
[36:38] It's fine to quit your job. Don't quit
[36:40] your job every six months because it's
[36:41] going to be on your resume that you're a
[36:42] job hopper and that's bad for you. Plus,
[36:44] you'll never be able to dig in. I got
[36:45] it. I mean, this is all within the
[36:47] boundaries of what makes sense, but you
[36:50] know, especially if you're a spiral.
[36:52] Walk away. Walk away. I said this in a
[36:56] lecture last year and and one of my
[36:58] smart, savvy Harvard Business School
[36:59] students, wonderful. They're great. She
[37:02] puts up her hand and said, "Professor,
[37:05] in last unit, you were talking about
[37:07] family dynamics and you talked about how
[37:09] you can how you can have a higher
[37:11] likelihood of having a marriage that
[37:13] lasts for a lifetime. I said, 'Yep. He
[37:16] said, 'In this unit, you're talking
[37:19] about careers and you're encouraging us
[37:21] to walk away when we lose interest.
[37:25] Why don't you talk to us about building
[37:27] a career that lasts a lifetime, but you
[37:29] know, having a marriage that you change
[37:31] every 7 to 12 years? I said, that is a
[37:34] smart question. And there's an answer to
[37:36] that. There's an answer to that because
[37:38] the spiral marriage pattern doesn't lead
[37:41] to ultimate happiness for the very
[37:44] reason that a lifelong partner, the
[37:46] person on whom you will be laying your
[37:49] eyes as you take your dying breath, is
[37:52] most associated with happiness. Now, it
[37:53] doesn't work out for everybody. I'll do
[37:55] an episode. I'm going to do a bunch of
[37:56] episodes coming up on love and love and
[37:58] happiness and staying in love, etc.
[38:00] That's a really interesting topic and
[38:02] not everybody can have that. But if you
[38:04] can, that's really worth dedicating
[38:06] yourself to and is very different than
[38:09] the pattern that you experience in the
[38:11] workplace in no small part because the
[38:14] relationships that you have in the
[38:15] workplace can be wonderful. They can be
[38:17] satisfying. They can be great. But your
[38:19] colleagues at work are not most likely
[38:22] going to be the people that are around
[38:24] your bedside when you're taking your
[38:26] dying breath. This is a different kind
[38:28] of relationship. They're what Aristotle
[38:30] calls friendships of transaction, useful
[38:33] friends, deal friends. Your ultimate
[38:36] real friend, if you're blessed to have
[38:38] it, is the is your lifelong partner. And
[38:41] that's why it's a different species of
[38:43] problem.
[38:45] So that's worth keeping in mind. And and
[38:47] again, every case is different and
[38:50] there's aspiration
[38:52] and sometimes it works out. But these
[38:54] are the patterns that we need to look at
[38:56] so that we can design our lives as
[38:57] optimally as we possibly can. Now, what
[39:00] I'm going to talk about in a future
[39:01] episode is when you're getting ready to
[39:03] change jobs, what should you be looking
[39:05] for? I mean, what should you be looking
[39:07] for to know that the next opportunity is
[39:10] the right opportunity? But I'm going to
[39:12] leave that for a future episode. Let me
[39:15] sum up. I've talked here about the four
[39:19] career types and and I've said that most
[39:21] of you were told that you're linears and
[39:23] that you should be really motivated and
[39:24] ambitious to go up that line, but you
[39:27] might not be a linear. You're probably
[39:30] not the expert career pattern, which is
[39:32] your father, mother, grandparents. You
[39:35] might be, but that's that steady state
[39:38] kind of career. You're probably not a
[39:40] transitory. you wouldn't be watching
[39:41] this podcast in the first place. But
[39:43] that's okay, too. If you are, which is
[39:44] kind of up and down and here and there
[39:45] and back and forth and changing a lot.
[39:47] Most likely, if you're not that linear,
[39:50] which people told you you were, it's
[39:51] because you're a spiral where you're
[39:53] creating on the canvas of your life, a
[39:56] painting that is a series of 7 to 12
[39:58] year scenarios, professional scenarios.
[40:01] Sometimes you make more, sometimes you
[40:03] make less. Sometimes you do this,
[40:05] sometimes that changing. It's an
[40:07] adventure. It's a new dawn. once or once
[40:10] a decade or so. And that's a very very
[40:12] beautiful thing. And if you are, you
[40:14] need to be you need to be pretty
[40:16] comfortable with what major changes are
[40:18] all about. And I've given you a whole
[40:20] bunch of ideas on how to do that. How to
[40:22] manage your expectations, how to see
[40:25] your career with respect to organization
[40:26] as opposed to self, how to make sure
[40:28] that you are focusing on the happiness
[40:31] of your life and not just the happiness
[40:32] of your job. And then you know um last
[40:36] but not least if you can making sure
[40:38] that it's about pull and not push. And
[40:40] then I gave you these rules the four
[40:42] rules once again. Manage your
[40:43] expectations.
[40:44] Look for happiness outside of work
[40:46] first. Jump before you're pushed
[40:50] and fear not.
[40:52] All right. Uh a couple of questions. We
[40:54] got some good ones this week. Um I got
[40:55] this one. You know I got I got to name
[40:57] this person um on by email and this came
[41:00] in at office hours.com. This is from
[41:02] Zeus Bear. Thank you, Zeus Bear. Cool
[41:05] name, Zeus Bear. Um, my kids are grown
[41:08] now. And although I've never worked, my
[41:11] main job since being as a child, um, was
[41:13] as a caregiver to other people, now that
[41:15] my kids are grown up, people keep saying
[41:17] I need to use my education and talents
[41:18] and go to work. I have a lot of ideas,
[41:21] but I'm afraid, do I know where to
[41:23] start? 53 years old. What should I do?
[41:28] Well, there's one piece of information
[41:29] that I don't know, which is, do you need
[41:31] money? Right? Because, you know, from
[41:33] what you've told me here, you might
[41:35] actually be relatively financially
[41:37] independent in the context of your
[41:39] family. You might be married to somebody
[41:41] who who um is earning as much money as
[41:43] your family needs, for example, because
[41:44] you've been doing caregiving, children,
[41:46] who've now moved out. If you need money
[41:49] for that, at least some money, one of
[41:52] the things that I recommend is actually
[41:54] figuring out a way to work with people
[41:56] that you you know, providing something
[41:58] that they need and where they trust you
[42:01] because they know you. This is a really
[42:03] good introduction into the workforce.
[42:04] You have somebody who has a retail
[42:07] establishment say, "Hey, can I give you
[42:08] a hand?" This is a really good way to do
[42:10] it. you know, one of my kids as a as a
[42:12] first job um went and worked for the
[42:15] father of a dear friend of mine who had
[42:17] a farm and lived in the farmer's
[42:19] basement and and learned how to become a
[42:21] farm hand. And it's just based on these
[42:23] relationships and it was a good start.
[42:25] It was a really really good start to his
[42:27] career. Learned a lot of job skills and
[42:29] was with people who knew him. It wasn't
[42:31] this transactional relationship. It was,
[42:33] you know, a little bit based on
[42:34] friendship. And that's a good
[42:35] introduction to the workforce. If you
[42:36] don't need money, I really recommend
[42:38] volunteering because there's tons of
[42:40] people, Zeus bear, and they need you.
[42:43] They need your talents. They need your
[42:45] energy. And at 53, you got you got
[42:48] you're loaded for bear, Zeus bear,
[42:51] sorry. And and figuring out how to
[42:52] volunteer in your community can be a
[42:54] real joy. Who knows? That might be
[42:56] vocationally something you've been
[42:57] looking for for a big part of your life.
[42:59] Those are great questions. Keep them
[43:01] coming, my friends. Thank you so much
[43:03] for participating in the show. Um, if
[43:06] you've got comments, leave the comments
[43:07] below, whether you're watching this on
[43:09] YouTube or listening on Spotify or
[43:10] Apple. We do read the comments and they
[43:12] really give us a lot of ideas and and we
[43:14] appreciate it because we want to make
[43:15] the show better and better as weeks go
[43:17] on. Give us suggestions for people you'd
[43:19] like for me to talk to as guests cuz I
[43:21] like doing that too. Those are some of
[43:22] the really fun conversations and some of
[43:24] the most successful shows that we've had
[43:25] so far. Um, like and subscribe. pound
[43:28] the subscribe button so it comes to you
[43:30] automatically and it the algorithm gods
[43:32] actually start smiling on us and and and
[43:34] we get more traffic and this gets in
[43:35] front of people who haven't heard of us
[43:36] before which is really great. Um follow
[43:39] me on Instagram, on LinkedIn, on
[43:40] whatever your social media platform of
[43:42] choice is and you'll get all kinds of
[43:44] little short, you know, diddies and and
[43:46] clips and things of not just this show
[43:48] but a lot of other things that I'm doing
[43:50] in media. And in the meantime, order the
[43:51] happiness files, the handsome yellow
[43:53] book behind me right now for 33 essays.
[43:56] um as well as reading my colony in the
[43:58] Atlantic. Please pass these ideas on to
[43:59] other people because the world needs to
[44:00] be a happier place and it starts with
[44:02] all of us becoming happiness teachers. I
[44:04] know you can do it. Hope you enjoy it
[44:07] and I'll see you next week.